Females on Submarines

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Leonard on November 12, 2009 at 9:30am

NavyDads Admin said:

I'm waiting....patiently...for SOMEONE to please tell me how a sub is different from a surface warship? The dimensions of a sub are not that much different from a destroyer so please tell me what makes the environment so different that we can trust the sailors that serve on surface ships and we cannot trust those that serve on subs?

Have you ever been on a sub? If not, you cannot picture the cramped quarters, narrow passageways, and small confined spaces where crewmembers literally rub against each other while going about their daily tasks. At the very least, many a good sailors career will be ended by accusations of sexual harrassment. At the very best, our country will spend untold millions trying to refit our submarine fleet......for what? So that a few women can boast they served on a sub.

I'm not against women serving anywhere. But, at some point we need to weigh the benefits against the gains. Our country will gain nothing in military preparedness. We sill spend a huge amount of money. Many, many of our sailors who have volunteered to serve our country in one of the hardest and most pressure packed environments in the world will suffer undue pressure that could be avoided. Many careers will be ended because of sexual harrassment claims, both true and untrue. Marriges could be threatened. All for what? Do the benefits out weigh the advantages? I can't see how.

This is being pushed by politicians and a political agenda. Hardly a just cause.

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Permalink Reply by NavyDads Admin (Paul) on November 12, 2009 at 10:19am

it's gonna happen whether you are in favor or not...might as well get used to it because that is the politcal reality

Leonard said:

NavyDads Admin said:

I'm waiting....patiently...for SOMEONE to please tell me how a sub is different from a surface warship? The dimensions of a sub are not that much different from a destroyer so please tell me what makes the environment so different that we can trust the sailors that serve on surface ships and we cannot trust those that serve on subs?

Have you ever been on a sub? If not, you cannot picture the cramped quarters, narrow passageways, and small confined spaces where crewmembers literally rub against each other while going about their daily tasks. At the very least, many a good sailors career will be ended by accusations of sexual harrassment. At the very best, our country will spend untold millions trying to refit our submarine fleet......for what? So that a few women can boast they served on a sub.

I'm not against women serving anywhere. But, at some point we need to weigh the benefits against the gains. Our country will gain nothing in military preparedness. We sill spend a huge amount of money. Many, many of our sailors who have volunteered to serve our country in one of the hardest and most pressure packed environments in the world will suffer undue pressure that could be avoided. Many careers will be ended because of sexual harrassment claims, both true and untrue. Marriges could be threatened. All for what? Do the benefits out weigh the advantages? I can't see how.

This is being pushed by politicians and a political agenda. Hardly a just cause.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard on November 12, 2009 at 10:49am

Of course, you are correct. It is going to happen. Just like so many other "progressive" ideas have happened in this country. As to the idea of "might as well get used to it?" Well, here's a few other PROGRESSIVE ideas that I will NEVER get used to:

1. Ban private ownership of fire arms.
2. Allow eminent domain for economic development.
3. Protect the environment by banning any form of energy production; nuclear, coal, oil, etc.
4. Ban any mention of God in any government venue.

I could go on, but I don't want this to be a politcal discussion. I was only trying to point out that the prescence of females on submarines is politcally driven, and is being pushed through without any consideration being given to a cost vs. benefit analysis.


NavyDads Admin said:

it's gonna happen whether you are in favor or not...might as well get used to it because that is the politcal reality

Leonard said:

NavyDads Admin said:

I'm waiting....patiently...for SOMEONE to please tell me how a sub is different from a surface warship? The dimensions of a sub are not that much different from a destroyer so please tell me what makes the environment so different that we can trust the sailors that serve on surface ships and we cannot trust those that serve on subs?

Have you ever been on a sub? If not, you cannot picture the cramped quarters, narrow passageways, and small confined spaces where crewmembers literally rub against each other while going about their daily tasks. At the very least, many a good sailors career will be ended by accusations of sexual harrassment. At the very best, our country will spend untold millions trying to refit our submarine fleet......for what? So that a few women can boast they served on a sub.

I'm not against women serving anywhere. But, at some point we need to weigh the benefits against the gains. Our country will gain nothing in military preparedness. We sill spend a huge amount of money. Many, many of our sailors who have volunteered to serve our country in one of the hardest and most pressure packed environments in the world will suffer undue pressure that could be avoided. Many careers will be ended because of sexual harrassment claims, both true and untrue. Marriges could be threatened. All for what? Do the benefits out weigh the advantages? I can't see how.

This is being pushed by politicians and a political agenda. Hardly a just cause.

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Permalink Reply by Randy Weston on November 12, 2009 at 11:04am

I am afraid Admin is correct. It is going to happen regardless of what we may think. I do believe that the initial screening requirements should be very tough. Only those women that can handle extreme diversity and personal criticism should be allowed. One thing I have not seen or heard yet is initially when a sailor first reports to a submarine they are a non-qual. Which means they are air breathing, space filling, sanitary filling, oxygen using, carbon dioxide producing, chow eating waste of a uniform, lower than whale caca, non-qual puke. lol. Although I never condoned this type of talk (haha), it is the way of life on the boats. Submariners treasure hard work and extensive knowledge. They do not tolerate slackers. If there are sailors of this type on a boat, they do not last very long. In order to survive on the boats you need to be willing to work until you pass out, devote your whole being to the boat, be loyal to your shipmates and the command and at the same time be able to bitch about them as well. You better have thick skin as you will be ridiculed and harassed until you qualify. You can't take it personally when you wake up and find you have been literally taped into your bunk with duct tape. While underway, you need to be able to adapt to an 18 hour day. And sometimes a 12 hour day, 6 hours on, 6 hours off for 63 days straight. While inport, you are standing port and starboard duty sections. Working 24 hours during your duty day and 12 more hours into the next day, 12 hours sleep and start over again.

Admin, you asked what the difference was. This is it. I have done both and what I have just described is life on a sub. A skimmer (surface ship), has regular working hours and nothing near the traditions of bubbleheads. I was trying to be PC, but the bubblehead finally came out.

There is a very good blog that has been mentioned here before regarding submarines that is run by a retired submarine officer, "The Stupid Shall be Punished".

NavyDads Admin said:

it's gonna happen whether you are in favor or not...might as well get used to it because that is the politcal reality

Leonard said:

NavyDads Admin said:

I'm waiting....patiently...for SOMEONE to please tell me how a sub is different from a surface warship? The dimensions of a sub are not that much different from a destroyer so please tell me what makes the environment so different that we can trust the sailors that serve on surface ships and we cannot trust those that serve on subs?

Have you ever been on a sub? If not, you cannot picture the cramped quarters, narrow passageways, and small confined spaces where crewmembers literally rub against each other while going about their daily tasks. At the very least, many a good sailors career will be ended by accusations of sexual harrassment. At the very best, our country will spend untold millions trying to refit our submarine fleet......for what? So that a few women can boast they served on a sub.

I'm not against women serving anywhere. But, at some point we need to weigh the benefits against the gains. Our country will gain nothing in military preparedness. We sill spend a huge amount of money. Many, many of our sailors who have volunteered to serve our country in one of the hardest and most pressure packed environments in the world will suffer undue pressure that could be avoided. Many careers will be ended because of sexual harrassment claims, both true and untrue. Marriges could be threatened. All for what? Do the benefits out weigh the advantages? I can't see how.

This is being pushed by politicians and a political agenda. Hardly a just cause.

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Permalink Reply by NavyDads Admin (Paul) on November 12, 2009 at 12:31pm

It's interesting John that many of the objections to women on subs have come from fathers with sons in the Navy, while those of us that have daughters serving don't seem to have as big an issue with the idea. Perhaps all those years of teaching our girls that they could do and accomplish anything they set their minds to is one of the differences. It continues to be an interesting discussion. I'm amazed that this is so controversial in the US while other countries don’t' seem to have an issue with it----

JohnM said:

So.....
With all this rubbing going on in cramped quarters (rubbing that a female would react to as being of a sexual nature), what does this tell us about the all volunteer, all male crew? Hmmm....

Sorry, but if you're going to play that card be prepared for the consequences.

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Permalink Reply by Randy Weston on November 12, 2009 at 5:30pm

Admin,

I am not against females on the boats. I have worked with some very good women and I am talking in skills such as diesel mechanics and firefighters. Hell, I married one of them. I do know that our political machine will make this transition happen. So, we need to prepare. I just want them fully informed of what the life is like. The life is very different from the surface fleet. Not so much in the physical confines of the ships, but in the mental attitudes of the crew.

Yes, I have a son in the Navy, but I also have a daughter that has been thinking of going in. I would not hesitate a nano second to give her my approval should she want to go subs. Because, I know she has the mental aptitude sufficient to survive and excel on the boats. This is my biggest point and it applies not only to females, but to males as well. I would say all this to any young man that inquired.

For me it is not a male/female thing as it is a mental attitude thing for anybody.

NavyDads Admin said:

It's interesting John that many of the objections to women on subs have come from fathers with sons in the Navy, while those of us that have daughters serving don't seem to have as big an issue with the idea. Perhaps all those years of teaching our girls that they could do and accomplish anything they set their minds to is one of the differences. It continues to be an interesting discussion. I'm amazed that this is so controversial in the US while other countries don’t' seem to have an issue with it----
JohnM said:

So.....
With all this rubbing going on in cramped quarters (rubbing that a female would react to as being of a sexual nature), what does this tell us about the all volunteer, all male crew? Hmmm....

Sorry, but if you're going to play that card be prepared for the consequences.

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Permalink Reply by NavyDads Admin (Paul) on November 12, 2009 at 5:42pm

that is EXACTLY my point...it is simply an attitude thing...no more....no less.

Randy Weston said:

Admin,

I am not against females on the boats. I have worked with some very good women and I am talking in skills such as diesel mechanics and firefighters. Hell, I married one of them. I do know that our political machine will make this transition happen. So, we need to prepare. I just want them fully informed of what the life is like. The life is very different from the surface fleet. Not so much in the physical confines of the ships, but in the mental attitudes of the crew.

Yes, I have a son in the Navy, but I also have a daughter that has been thinking of going in. I would not hesitate a nano second to give her my approval should she want to go subs. Because, I know she has the mental aptitude sufficient to survive and excel on the boats. This is my biggest point and it applies not only to females, but to males as well. I would say all this to any young man that inquired.

For me it is not a male/female thing as it is a mental attitude thing for anybody.

NavyDads Admin said:

It's interesting John that many of the objections to women on subs have come from fathers with sons in the Navy, while those of us that have daughters serving don't seem to have as big an issue with the idea. Perhaps all those years of teaching our girls that they could do and accomplish anything they set their minds to is one of the differences. It continues to be an interesting discussion. I'm amazed that this is so controversial in the US while other countries don’t' seem to have an issue with it----
JohnM said:

So.....
With all this rubbing going on in cramped quarters (rubbing that a female would react to as being of a sexual nature), what does this tell us about the all volunteer, all male crew? Hmmm....

Sorry, but if you're going to play that card be prepared for the consequences.

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