Talk Politics

Comment

Comment by Philip Greaves on July 1, 2011 at 1:28pm

Wayne Ok I lied about the last word. Thank you, my friend

Comment by Wayne Johnson on July 1, 2011 at 1:21pm

Phillip,

Well, I suppose I'll take you up on having the last word. As I said before, it would have a great pleasure having a substantive discussion with you. There are some things we agree on, and some that we don't.  Your arguments are well-thought-out and reasoned (for the most part!). If you are indeed on the west coast, we are 3000 miles apart, as I face a different ocean.  I hope you have not interpreted anything I have said as a personal attack. That was never my intention, and have offended you, I apologize.

I myself have been unemployed for months at a time, once for 1½ years, and I know the value of hard work.  But I am not as afraid of "Big Government" as you are, and am very well aware of what good a strong government can do for its citizens. We are, as a democratic republic, ideologically very, very far from a socialist system.

We might be able to agree that the "too big to fail" banks, the large, faceless multinational corporations, and the monied elite have corrupted our easily-corruptible legislators, as well as the judiciary, the media, and even higher education.  This, I believe, is the scourge that is eating away at out country, and which manifests itself in so many smaller ways that keep us arguing.

For what it's worth, I have enjoyed our discussion, and wish we had time and opportunity to continue it.  It's rare and refreshing to debate someone whose opposing opinions arise from a well-informed and intelligent source.

Be well, and may the force be with you.

Comment by Mike Stark on July 1, 2011 at 11:26am

For too many people state's rights are code for wishing that that pesky 13th amendment never freed the slaves and that pesky 15th amendment never gave the black man the vote. Those people dishonor the libertarians who want to follow Jefferson's small government example rather than Jefferson's slave owner example.

 

As to which candidate I want, I just want someone rational. I've had enough of people who can simultaneously say that the president is a godless commie and a Muslim religious fanatic without the slightest hint they see the irony in that. Huntsman, Romney and Pawlenty look closer to rationality than the others. They have their own problems, of course, but at least they leap that low bar.

Comment by Philip Greaves on July 1, 2011 at 3:44am

Wayne

This will be my last reply, at least on this topic. You may have the last word if you wish. I have tried to explain my position on issues of freedom, liberty, responsibility, self-sufficiency and other important points of contention. I quote the Founders and others not to buttress my case but to show I believe as they did. I think the conversation is degenerating into personal attacks and I choose not to do so.

You are absolutely correct in quoting both Jefferson and Lincoln with regards to our banking system. Jefferson views on banks were extremely negative to say the least and he thought bankers were thieves.   He seems to have been more foresighted that Hamilton on that point. The Federal Reserve with its loose monetary policy and too big to fail banks are destroying our wealth and ability to prosper as a country. But in the end, yes Wayne, I do believe freedom means Free. States’ rights are a very large part of what the founders argued over. It is not code for some Dixie dog whistle, whatever the hell that is. If you’re referring to some racist ideology, sorry Wayne you got the wrong guy.  I live in the heart of the land of fruits and nuts. It also happens to be one of the most diverse places in the country.  I refer to San Francisco not Des Moines.  Values are as varied as the life styles. Are they my values?  Not always. Sometimes not even close. Do I agree with the politics here?  Yes sometimes but rarely.  Here’s the good news. I can move to another county or even state and be with people that hold the same positions and values I do. If that wrong then freedom has no meaning.  Values are sometimes exclusionary. If I value different things than you or hold something’s as sacred or of higher value in my life. I cannot nor should I be able to force you to think or conform to mine. You are free to think and do as you will as long as it does not tread on someone else’s rights.  Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.   I don’t know when or where liberty vs. safety entered into our discussion but if it had Ben is a great quote.

I’m a simple guy Wayne. I had my own small business and lost it because of a less than honest partner and  bad decisions of mine. I’ve owned homes and lost them. I work blue collar jobs with and without a union. Picked grapes for 3 cents a tray in 105 degree heat.  I’ve owned mustangs an NSX and a Porsche. My current choice is a large Ford F 250. I am grateful for the freedom to fail because the same freedom exists to succeed.  I am also grateful and proud of people like your son and all the other young sailors and solders that serve in our armed forces.  God Bless this country.  I wish you well.

 

Comment by Matt B on June 30, 2011 at 9:30pm

Isn't google wonderful 

Comment by Wayne Johnson on June 30, 2011 at 9:17pm

C'mon, Phillip!  I want to say, "Stop with the 'States' Rights' jive," but I won't.  You know as well as I do that the phrase "states rights" is a "Dixie dog whistle" which means, "folks doing what they know is morally wrong, but there's enough rednecks in the state doing the same thing."

You espouse that the family values are different between San Francisco and Des Moines.  No, they're not. Family values are family values. The difference is that one area may be more exclusionary (I'm not talking specifically about Des Moines) and one is more inclusive.

So, you think that your FREEDOM means that you're free to move to a different community or different state?  I have news for you. If you don't like our system of federal government, the democratic republic that has made our country great, and the envy of the world, then you can choose to move to another country.

After reading your previous post, I thought we might have had something to discuss, since you seem like a well-informed and somewhat well-read conservative, but after the last post, you've lost your credibility. 

Maybe it's time you started watching/listening to Keith, Rachel, Ed, Lawrence, Thom, Cenk, Randi, and Stephanie! (and watching Bill Maher!)

Let me know when you're ready for a serious conversation, my friend.

"Those who would sacrifice their liberty for a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"  --Ben Franklin

..and since you're so fond of quoting Jefferson:

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."
-- Thomas Jefferson

 

...and, I'll leave you with one more:

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. . . corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."
Abraham Lincoln

Comment by Philip Greaves on June 30, 2011 at 11:56am

Kirk

It sounds like we are both in favor of States Rights and local governance. When one talks of family values and moral issues there is a vast difference between San Francisco and Des Moines. I am free to move to another community or state if I don't like the one I'm in. With Federal control there will be little difference and no choice. No choice, NO FREEDOM

Comment by Kirk Brooks on June 30, 2011 at 9:40am

Seems to me it's mostly about critical thinking. No one party has all of the answers. I certainly agree with Philip when it comes to the 2nd Amendment. I think we should all be able and obligated to defend ourselves and others the SHTF. I also think he's dead on about wasting tax money on people who have demonstrated a lifetime of poor decisions and underachievement. I would hope that everyone would feel that a gov't that promotes job growth in the private sector is better than increasing the public payroll. (Even though I know that many don't) That being said, the noisemakers on the far right think their cookie-cutter definitions of things like "Family values" and "Morals" should be imposed on the world and that's just plain silly to think that you can legislate those concepts out of people.  My voter registration is "Unaffiliated", I choose my candidates based on their positions on issues and their public record. I've found that on national/state issues I usually go with the GOP but at the local level I've voted for moderate Dems quite a few times because our positions lined up. My personal opinion is that if someone votes the party ticket without questioning anything they do more harm than good since the party doesn't get to grow and evolve with the populace. DSC_0108.jpg I saw this at the park the other day. This is why people like Ron Paul aren't taken seriously.

Comment by Philip Greaves on June 30, 2011 at 2:12am

Wayne

I would enjoy discussing Original Intent and the Constitution, the Federalist Papers or whatever; however this forum is not the place. You obliviously hold a far more progressive ideology than me. I subscribe to the notion that what I earn is mine to keep. I and every citizen should pay taxes for the defense of this great nation, its infrastructure, and the Government which serves us all. We should pay on an equal basis as we all obtain the same benefit. The person who makes a greater income will always pay more in taxes even if the percentage of the tax is the same. I fail to see how penalizing an individual for his success by increasing his burden if fair by any rational standard. I do not believe I have an obligation< read obligation>to pay for the mis-deeds and poor life choices of others. This is not charity as charity is an individual action, not a government mandate. Yes taking someone’s money and giving it to another, no matter how deserving in your eyes is government theft and I doubt you can find it in the constitution anywhere.  You may want to read Thomas Jefferson's quote from my last post. The Constitution and all the amendments were written to protect the people from an ever intrusive and more powerful government not a more empowered people. Another old no it all said:

“Democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always followed by dictatorship.”

- Alexander Fraser Tyler, ‘The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic'.

 By the way, the Supreme Court already answered the 2nd amendment question about militias.  No. 07–290. Argued March 18, 2008—Decided June 26, 2008                                                                                                                1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes,

We can save the bush bashing for another day. I’m not necessarily one of his biggest fans anyway. That said, I would take him on his worst day over Obama on his best. (If ever he has one)

O and yes I do listen to Rush L and Shawn and Mark and Glen and Bill and Thomas and Laura sometimes Michael and I’ve read Ann &Bill & William.

 

Comment by Philip Greaves on June 30, 2011 at 12:34am

HOOYAH!! Matt

Hey we had a few of those shovel ready jobs out here in California. First they tore a big section out of several roads then patched it again. Well almost patched it. Sort of. I'm sure their going to. It did stimulate the economy though. I've spent over 1500.00 for new shocks and tires.

 

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• …
• 24
• 25
• 26
• 27
• 28
• …
• 113
• Next ›
• Page