Talk Politics

Comment

Comment by Rex on May 17, 2010 at 5:22pm

Here is some of the new wording for the bill.
D. A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY,
2 CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT CONSIDER
3 RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN THE ENFORCEMENT OF THIS SECTION EXCEPT TO
4 THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR ARIZONA CONSTITUTION.
5 E. IN THE ENFORCEMENT OF THIS SECTION, AN ALIEN'S IMMIGRATION STATUS
6 MAY BE DETERMINED BY:
7 1. A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER WHO IS AUTHORIZED BY THE FEDERAL
8 GOVERNMENT TO VERIFY OR ASCERTAIN AN ALIEN'S IMMIGRATION STATUS.
9 2. THE UNITED STATES IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT OR THE UNITED
10 STATES CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION
11 1373
I am not pointing fingers at any one, but some people did not take the time to read the bill. No cop can come up to a person and demand any ones immigration papers. It just doesn't work that way. If any one breaks a law the the cops always ask for some kind of ID. if you read the requirements for id. in the bill 1070 its not asking any thing special . Not even a passport just every day stuff.

Comment by greg delany on May 17, 2010 at 4:53pm

Mike the America I live in has room for everyone as long as they are law abidding Americans. Our main stream media seems to be the ones who have forgotten the Americans in fly by country. Freedom is for all, so I pray you don't take anymore of my freedoms or my hard earned money and give it to a Government that has no rights or knoledge of what to do with either.
Our local City government just sent us a letter informing me that our city will take over trash collection services. They will be using the company I am already under contract with. This company picks up my trash twice a week for $15 a month with no restrictions. The City will take over the trash collection and pick up once a week at a cost of $30 a month and I must separarte regular trash from recyclable trash. So our government steps in again on my rights to choose service at a competative rate and forces me to pay them twice the rate I pay now for half the service and add extra work on top of it. Please understand I still believe government is not the answer to our problems, but Government is the problem.
Mr. Holder suggests that the law in AZ will lead to racial profiling. Yet when asked if he read the 10 page LAW in AZ he said he had not. Seems that the current administration and the Bozo's in Congress are good at voting on and commenting on things without reading them. The Law in AZ is a copy of the Federal law that is just not enforced. Our former Gov. Ms. Napolitano sent the Fed. Government an itemized bill on several different occations to recoop the cost of containing the border. She sent National Gaurd troops to help stem the flow of illeagals coming to AZ. She is suprisingly quiet now that she is in the current Administration.

Comment by Mike Stark on May 17, 2010 at 3:27pm

A cartoon from the other side.

Comment by Mike Stark on May 17, 2010 at 3:25pm

ctyankee is making sense -- I was referring to random stops. I have no problem with aggressive law enforcement. I have a problem with law enforcement that ignores the 4th and 14th amendments. I'm no lawyer, but my best guess is that the courts will strike down the Arizona law is it stands. Which is why I suggest extra state troopers in the border counties, and running names through the computer at traffic stops, or as ctyankee suggests domestic disturbances. The key phrase in the 4th is probable cause -- if you have any cause to investigate on the merits, doing a computer background check is a-ok.

And while I'm not sure, I think Greg & I do live in different worlds. In my world there is no distinction between "Real Americans" and the rest of us second class citizens who are too liberal, too ethnic, too urban or too suburban. This [poop] has been going on my entire adult life, starting when Reagan's Interior Secretary Watt made the distinction between "liberals and Americans" and I'm sick and tired of it. Today's manifestation is setting a less than one term governor of a state with fewer people than either the county I grew up in or the county I now live in as the archetype of "real America". Nassau County Long Island and Prince George's County Maryland are real America, too, and don't you forget it.

Comment by ctyankee on May 17, 2010 at 11:06am

Mike said:

"What's wrong with police being able to stop my two stepsisters, ask my Mexican-American stepsister for a birth certificate while settling for a driver's license from my Anglo stepsister?"

But didn't specify what "stopping" is. If the question is "to stop" while walking across a mall parking lot... then there is a *HUGE* problem with the intrusion.

However, if the "stop" is in response to the violation of a *real* law, i.e moving violation, drunk & disorderly, and yes even a domestic violence call, perpetrator or victim... (sorry about the gender bias) then there is really no issue about a citizenship inquiry and the consequences thereof.

Then there is the 3rd leg of the stool, suppose the person is a witness to a crime; a _disinterested_ witness. Under that circumstance, the person's citizenship should be *strictly off limits* unless and until, the witness fails to behave/act as a prudent person would if citizenship were not an issue. And then the consequences should be no different than the consequences faced by a citizen; Justice is supposed to be blindfolded!

I know that those three positions do almost nothing to resolve the issues, but at least I'm trying to simplify and clarify based in simple principles.

I'm no fan of gummint/police intrusion -- I don't want there to be roundups. At the same time, if someone breaks the law or it can be argued that their presence was causative to someone else breaking the law, why should there be any restrictions on the enforcement of the laws that have been violated. And if the interaction with the law is caused by an unrelated bad act by a 3rd party the greater interest is served by ignoring the issue under the scope of the event.

Maybe we should put all them illegals to work wiping the spilt' oil off the rocks and birds in the gulf... :^)

Comment by greg delany on May 17, 2010 at 10:49am

Wow Mike you live in a diffrent world.
I have traveled to 40 different countries and I had to carry my Passport and visa with me the entire time I was in these countries. Why should it be different here? Being an AZ resident I can say I see the effects of the "ILLEAGAL ALIEN" influx. Note the word Illeagal, that means against the LAW. We have laws to protect us from lawlessness. My wife and Mother-in-law immigrated Leagally, what is wrong with that?. Lets start upholding the law and then re-write our current laws that allow illeagal immigrants to cross our border to give birth in US hospitals so they can have a Child citizen. If they are in our country illeagally and have a child, we should provide them with free transport back to the country they came from and wish them a good life in their own home.
I will have to agree with you that Cameron may be even farther left than Lenin but not Left of Obama. They both want the distruction of Capitalism and the middle class by the looks of it.

Comment by Mike Stark on May 17, 2010 at 9:14am

I think Lenin liked internal pass laws, too! Governor Brewer is at least the Leninist that President Obama is. Actually, neither of them come close (Tory PM David Cameron in the UK is probably to the left of both of them) but I figured I'd carry the reasoning to the absurd extreme.

As to Arizona laws, what's wrong with hiring a couple thousand more state troopers and sending them to the border? Absolutely nothing -- it's constitutional.

What's wrong with checking someone's citizenship on the computer at a traffic stop? Absolutely nothing -- it's perfectly within the probable cause of the 4th amendment.

What's wrong with police being able to stop my two stepsisters, ask my Mexican-American stepsister for a birth certificate while settling for a driver's license from my Anglo stepsister? If you don't see it, there's little hope for you. First, it is probably unconstitutional discrimination under the equal protection clause. Second, the message here is that my Anglo stepsister is a "Real American" and my Mexican American stepsister isn't.

The solution here is to have a national ID card. Then the "papers please" question might still be offensive (or not), but it is now a political argument rather than a constitutional one.

On the pragmatic level, unless the latest version has changed this the citizens of Arizona can sue the state if the law is not sufficiently enforced. And I am no card-carrying ACLUer, but I can assure you an equal protection lawsuit will come from that direction. So the State of Arizona will be sued if they enforce the law and sued if they don't. How is that intelligent government?

Comment by Rex on May 16, 2010 at 9:03am

Here is the newest up date to the Arizona immigration bill that some people are all upset about.
Take some time time to read it. Its NOT what the mainstream media is telling you, in fact California has almost the same bill but they wont enforce it .

http://azstarnet.com/news/pdf_64720634-4e56-11df-9876-001cc4c03286....

Comment by Rex on May 16, 2010 at 7:31am

Comment by greg delany on May 16, 2010 at 6:48am

I think you are right Jim and I also think our current leader is Lenin re-incarnated. I hope Stalin stayed in hell but you never know.

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