Females on Submarines

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by NavyDads Admin (Paul) on September 29, 2009 at 5:17pm

I'm reading your post as saying you don't think females can perform the job tasks required?

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Permalink Reply by John on September 29, 2009 at 6:33pm

NavyDads Admin said:

I'm reading your post as saying you don't think females can perform the job tasks required?

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Permalink Reply by John on September 29, 2009 at 7:07pm

Dear Fellow Veterans,

When i was in the army, during Carter's term as Commander in Chief, they started putting females with us males, on the "front line". ( After Vietnam - 76-79 ). I'll never forget the time during a huge LOTTS operation, there at Ft. Story, down from Little Creek - Army, Navy , Marines .... - and this one guy, a real Casanova, he started to put his tent-half together with this Chick. Well, we schlemiels were envious of him, knowing what was his ultimate goal. ( why didn't he want to share a tent-half with one of his former platoon mates ?) So, not long before they were all set to Bed Down Together, one of the NCO's, a Vietnam Vet, came up to this guy's tent and told him, " Fuhgetaboutit."

I am sorry that my old-fashioned (christian) beliefs offend so many people. I am not sorry for my old fashioned beliefs.

Let me ask you all this, as a starting point for us to understand what different World Views we may be assuming; Do you want your daughters shaking up with guys on Surface ships, not to mention Subs? ( isn't it more than 12% of the women on Skimmers are pregnant before the end of the cruise ?) Do you truly , deep down in your hearts, want you daughters sleeping and working around young , Virile , young men day and night , out at Sea ?

Oh, by the way, Bush submitted the idea to start letting young women be stationed on Subs. So Obama can't get all the credit. Forgive my poor writing skills.

Humbly Submitted,

john in Georgia

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Permalink Reply by NavyDads Admin (Paul) on September 29, 2009 at 7:12pm

To be blunt, my daughter completed a seven month cruise on a carrier recently and she had no issues during that little boat ride....but then again, Kat doesn't take crap from anyone............

John said:

Dear Fellow Veterans,

When i was in the army, during Carter's term as Commander in Chief, they started putting females with us males, on the "front line". ( After Vietnam - 76-79 ). I'll never forget the time during a huge LOTTS operation, there at Ft. Story, down from Little Creek - Army, Navy , Marines .... - and this one guy, a real Casanova, he started to put his tent-half together with this Chick. Well, we schlemiels were envious of him, knowing what was his ultimate goal. ( why didn't he want to share a tent-half with one of his former platoon mates ?) So, not long before they were all set to Bed Down Together, one of the NCO's, a Vietnam Vet, came up to this guy's tent and told him, " Fuhgetaboutit."

I am sorry that my old-fashioned (christian) beliefs offend so many people. I am not sorry for my old fashioned beliefs.

Let me ask you all this, as a starting point for us to understand what different World Views we may be assuming; Do you want your daughters shaking up with guys on Surface ships, not to mention Subs? ( isn't it more than 12% of the women on Skimmers are pregnant before the end of the cruise ?) Do you truly , deep down in your hearts, want you daughters sleeping and working around young , Virile , young men day and night , out at Sea ?

Oh, by the way, Bush submitted the idea to start letting young women be stationed on Subs. So Obama can't get all the credit. Forgive my poor writing skills.

Humbly Submitted,

john in Georgia

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Permalink Reply by NavyDads Admin (Paul) on September 29, 2009 at 8:17pm

It is an interesting discussion and needs to continue at high levels. I see a list of logistical issues that may be difficult to overcome considering the limited space available on subs as currently configured and with all the years of tradition. As a personal note, I'm not so sure I appreciate the implication that I may not be Christian because I'm asking to try to understand what your rather vehement statements are based on. I know women are stationed on subs for some other countries and I haven't seen much on the tube or in print about problems with that policy. On another note, during my Tiger Cruise earlier this year, I saw many women serving on my son's carrier (yeah...I have one of each flavor serving on carriers) and I didn't see anyone during those 2 1/2 days treat female sailors any different from any other sailor doing their jobs.

NavyDads Admin said:

To be blunt, my daughter completed a seven month cruise on a carrier recently and she had no issues during that little boat ride....but then again, Kat doesn't take crap from anyone............

John said:

Dear Fellow Veterans,

When i was in the army, during Carter's term as Commander in Chief, they started putting females with us males, on the "front line". ( After Vietnam - 76-79 ). I'll never forget the time during a huge LOTTS operation, there at Ft. Story, down from Little Creek - Army, Navy , Marines .... - and this one guy, a real Casanova, he started to put his tent-half together with this Chick. Well, we schlemiels were envious of him, knowing what was his ultimate goal. ( why didn't he want to share a tent-half with one of his former platoon mates ?) So, not long before they were all set to Bed Down Together, one of the NCO's, a Vietnam Vet, came up to this guy's tent and told him, " Fuhgetaboutit."

I am sorry that my old-fashioned (christian) beliefs offend so many people. I am not sorry for my old fashioned beliefs.

Let me ask you all this, as a starting point for us to understand what different World Views we may be assuming; Do you want your daughters shaking up with guys on Surface ships, not to mention Subs? ( isn't it more than 12% of the women on Skimmers are pregnant before the end of the cruise ?) Do you truly , deep down in your hearts, want you daughters sleeping and working around young , Virile , young men day and night , out at Sea ?

Oh, by the way, Bush submitted the idea to start letting young women be stationed on Subs. So Obama can't get all the credit. Forgive my poor writing skills.

Humbly Submitted,

john in Georgia

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Permalink Reply by Randy Weston on September 30, 2009 at 4:40pm

John,

Get used to it. It is the way it is going to be, regardless of what we may want or desire.

Understand, these words are from a retired submariner. 21 years starting in 76 and ending 96. The first half of my career was on the boats and the second half was on submarine drydocks and tenders. During the second half, I had many women work for me in a number of capacities (grunt to mid management). Providing you treated them as sailors, they performed as well and in some cases better than the men. However, the biggest problem I had with the female gender was unplanned pregnancies. This created a management problem. You have a certain number of billets and are required to have them filled at all times in order to meet operational readiness. At the time, the rules were such, that when you lost one to pregnancy, that billet could not be filled until she came back to the ship. This was on average, 10 to 12 months. Multiply that by 3 and out of a 30 billet division, you are down 10%. During my time as an officer, 7 years, I never once was at full strength due this issue. Take this issue onto a boat (submarine) and this could have a major impact on readiness.

I do know that right before I left, they changed the rule and they were permanently transferred at the end of their first trimester, which opened up that billet much sooner. This is still going to be a problem on the fast attacks. Boomers they will fit right in, lol.

By the way, it was Clinton that first initiated the feasibility study of women on submarines. This was in 93. But then when you are looking at this issue, physical constraints come into play. A fast boat would require considerable changes to accommodate women. The boomers are all tridents and could accommodate the women. But even they would have to be changed.

Back to my first statement. I have seen these type of issues develop, and that is exactly what happens. They develop and grow and next thing you know, it is policy.

Randy

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Permalink Reply by John on October 1, 2009 at 6:55am

Dear Randy,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful and kind reply.

I am still very depressed, but I haven't taking down my pistol, or cleaned out my closet yet ..... I did call one congressman, though.

I don't have the time to respond properly, or the writing skills, as i would like to; the other day was my only day off during the week, and i had time then to read a little and (foolishly !) vent on this web page.

I must go to work now. However, my wife showed me this morning that Military.com has a poll indicating 75% think Subs should stay males only. I do not believe in democracy, but many times "the great unwashed" (myself included) know better about human nature and common sense than do the elite, the egg-head crowd, that love to lead us us.

By the way, i have a wife and two daughters, and they don't think i hate them or treat them less than honorably. We are just old fashioned, and have a different World View than do those in leadership. As i said before, "Whom the gods (and those in leadership ) would destroy, they first make mad."

So much more to say, but i gotta go to work. Thanks again, and God Bless you, Randy

Cordially, john
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Randy Weston said:

John,

Get used to it. It is the way it is going to be, regardless of what we may want or desire.

Understand, these words are from a retired submariner. 21 years starting in 76 and ending 96. The first half of my career was on the boats and the second half was on submarine drydocks and tenders. During the second half, I had many women work for me in a number of capacities (grunt to mid management). Providing you treated them as sailors, they performed as well and in some cases better than the men. However, the biggest problem I had with the female gender was unplanned pregnancies. This created a management problem. You have a certain number of billets and are required to have them filled at all times in order to meet operational readiness. At the time, the rules were such, that when you lost one to pregnancy, that billet could not be filled until she came back to the ship. This was on average, 10 to 12 months. Multiply that by 3 and out of a 30 billet division, you are down 10%. During my time as an officer, 7 years, I never once was at full strength due this issue. Take this issue onto a boat (submarine) and this could have a major impact on readiness.

I do know that right before I left, they changed the rule and they were permanently transferred at the end of their first trimester, which opened up that billet much sooner. This is still going to be a problem on the fast attacks. Boomers they will fit right in, lol.

By the way, it was Clinton that first initiated the feasibility study of women on submarines. This was in 93. But then when you are looking at this issue, physical constraints come into play. A fast boat would require considerable changes to accommodate women. The boomers are all tridents and could accommodate the women. But even they would have to be changed.

Back to my first statement. I have seen these type of issues develop, and that is exactly what happens. They develop and grow and next thing you know, it is policy.

Randy

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Permalink Reply by Paul Lundin on October 3, 2009 at 5:58pm

Ok, first off I feel as though at some point we are going to have to embrace the fact that we are going to have start trusting these young men and women. They are are highly trained sailors who have a mission in life. Yeah, it's an idea that one can't help think, Ok how can they share a bed and not have relations. This is battle, less we not forget these sailors rely on each with their lives and I'm sure they take that very seriously. Subs are tight and do we really think having them separated is going to stop two people from thinking about or having sex, please! Are issues like this one that makes us think, yes. Is the thought we can stop people from having sex, no. The idea of having males and females in battle had been decided long ago. Perhaps we concentrate on training these sailors to be responsible, remind them of their duty and move on. Just a thought.

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Permalink Reply by NavyDads Admin (Paul) on October 3, 2009 at 8:34pm

Big article about this in the 5 Oct issue of Navy Times...

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Permalink Reply by steve on October 4, 2009 at 11:24am

Good day everyone..... Paul,do you have a link to that particular article? I went to Navy Times,but could not find it.
Thanks..
Steve !!!

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Permalink Reply by NavyDads Admin (Paul) on October 4, 2009 at 11:37am

I subscribe to the print version-- the article is is the edition that is dated 10/5/09. I don't think it will be in the digital version until tomorrow at the earliest.

steve said:

Good day everyone..... Paul,do you have a link to that particular article? I went to Navy Times,but could not find it.
Thanks..
Steve !!!

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Permalink Reply by steve on October 4, 2009 at 1:44pm

Cool... Thanks Paul..... Didn't realize ppl still read print on paper{:-)

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